“I have a history of being the only vote that was a ‘no,'” says Rep. Thomas Massie (R-Ky.). “I’ve developed some trust with my constituents on those lone votes.”
Within the second episode of Simply Asking Questions, Massie joins Motive‘s Zach Weissmueller and Liz Wolfe to speak about his current votes towards support to Ukraine and Israel, in addition to a controversial meme that he posted on X (previously Twitter), which Senate Majority Chief Chuck Schumer blasted as “antisemitic, disgusting, dangerous.”
Massie says expenses of antisemitism are “simply not true” and that his targets are to keep away from “open-ended support” for Israel’s warfare and resist encroachments on free speech.
In addition they mentioned Massie’s try to drive an in-person Congressional vote on a $2.2 trillion COVID-19 reduction invoice in March 2020, a transfer which prompted former president Donald Trump to label Massie “a third-rate grandstander” and demand he be kicked out of the Republican Get together. Massie defeated major challenger Todd McMurtry 81-19 lower than three months later.
“I was just trying to get people on record,” says Massie. “The reason I was trying to get people on record is I knew this was one of the worst votes in history and nobody was going to be accountable for it… Here we are three years later, every bad thing that I said would happen as a result of [passing the $2.2 trillion relief package] has happened.”
Watch the complete dialog on Motive‘s YouTube channel or on the Simply Asking Questions podcast feed on Apple, Spotify, or your most popular podcatcher.
Watch the complete video right here and discover a condensed transcript under.
Zach Weissmueller: I wish to discuss one thing that is unfolding in D.C. proper now, which is a vote on the FISA Reform and Reauthorization Act. As a part of that, the reauthorization of one thing referred to as Part 702, which primarily permits the federal government to surveil communications between Americans and international targets and not using a warrant. Although, after some resistance, a clear reauthorization of that’s unlikely to occur. They’re attaching it to the Nationwide Protection Authorization Act, which is type of just like the protection finances for the yr. And so they’re attempting to slide a extra short-term extension into that. Might you inform us what’s at stake for Individuals with this concern?
Rep. Thomas Massie: So we’re not attempting to remove the FISA 702 program. It was established to permit our intelligence businesses to spy on foreigners and not using a warrant. So as to qualify to be spied on and not using a warrant, it’s important to be exterior of the nation and it’s important to be not an American citizen. In case you’re contained in the nation, or when you’re an American citizen exterior of the nation, you possibly can’t be spied on by this program. Sounds nice, proper? However we have 250,000 folks on that listing that we’re amassing data on.
In case you discuss to a businessperson in France, for example, your emails and stuff might get caught up on this knowledge assortment. Effectively, what they have been doing goes into this large ball of information and so they put in your title. They’ll put in Zach’s title and search it and not using a warrant, with out affordable suspicion or possible trigger. They’re utilizing this to not examine suspects, however to create suspects.
To illustrate that you just and Liz are at a protest and so they develop some nexus. They are saying, “Well, we think these protesters were inspired by Russia. We’re just going to run all the protesters’ names through this database.” Now, although the Intel neighborhood would not concede that they want a warrant for this, they’ve admitted that they violated their very own protocols a whole bunch of 1000’s of occasions after they looked for U.S. individuals knowledge on this haystack. They are saying, “Well, it was created legally, so we don’t need a warrant to go search it.”
There are two proposals to reauthorize this program. By the best way, the one likelihood you ever get to reform these applications is after they expire. So it is vital that they do expire sometimes, and this one expires in January. And within the Judiciary Committee, which Jim Jordan chairs, and on which I serve, we have marked up a invoice that might require them to get a warrant. It might create legal penalties for folks within the govt department who abuse this system. As a result of there’s by no means any culpability or blowback for anyone that is abused this program.
So we created this reform invoice. After which the Intel committee has created a invoice which is lower than splendid. It would not have a warrant requirement. It would not have lots of the reporting necessities again to Congress that the judiciary invoice has. And actually, it expands their potential to gather data. As an illustration, when you had free Wi-Fi at a restaurant, that service supplier could be handled like Google or Verizon now. And so they must create a direct pipeline to the intel businesses for any of the communications that undergo that.
So you have obtained two proposals on the market, and we’re working out of time. What Speaker Johnson has proposed and a few senators have proposed is “Let’s just keep the old program in place for a little bit longer.” Your fundamental congressional kicking the can down the street train that is going to be passing the Senate in all probability right this moment until Mike Lee and Rand Paul can cease it. Then it involves the Home in all probability tomorrow.
Now, an fascinating factor right here is I serve on the Guidelines Committee, and Chip Roy and Ralph Norman do as nicely. And we instructed the powers that be that we won’t go together with this. In order that they could not cross a rule to mix the FISA program with the NDAA. That is how they will attempt to get it via, connect it to must-pass laws, the Nationwide Protection Authorization Act. Effectively, we stated, “Nope, this shall not pass the Rules Committee.” So they will attempt to do that on suspension. There is a Home rule that claims if you wish to droop all of our common guidelines and expedite one thing, you want a two-thirds vote of the Home. So that is going to be fascinating to see if they’ll get successfully 290 folks to vote for it.
Weissmueller: It’s fascinating as a result of when you assume again to when plenty of Individuals have been first woke up to this with the Snowden revelations a couple of decade in the past, there have been some lonely dissenters and most of the people simply rubber-stamped these things. It does appear as if now there’s extra resistance. I assume a few of that has to do with the best way FISA was used towards the Trump administration. Do you’re feeling the political tides have shifted considerably to the benefit of people that care about privateness and authorities surveillance?
Massie: The tides have not simply shifted, the celebs have aligned. We have by no means had a md of both the Intel Committee or the Judiciary Committee who made reforming this program considered one of their priorities. So with Jim Jordan, we’re very fortunate to have him because the chairman of this committee. And considered one of his signature agendas is to get this reform, as a result of now we have seen abuses which have been used towards President Trump.
So plenty of conservatives have woken as much as the truth that this program is getting used towards them. You may have liberals who’re upset about this system. Clearly, the FBI’s utilizing this towards Black Lives Matter as nicely.
So that you do have this coalition of the left and the suitable. It was a coalition of a dozen folks, Proper? It was me and Justin Amash, Zoe Lofgren, and Tulsi Gabbard, perhaps who have been involved about this. We used to come back collectively and we’d supply amendments to attempt to repair this within the funding payments. We’d attempt to defund some of these things, which is a very blunt instrument. It is rather a lot simpler to jot down laws that impacts the legal guidelines than it’s to simply defund one thing. And they might pat us on the top and say, “Well, you know, we appreciate the sentiment, but this isn’t the time or place to do what you’re doing. And you shouldn’t be mucking around with the funding.” However now’s the time and place, this system is expiring. We have a md who’s sympathetic to the trigger. You recognize, this reported out of the Judiciary Committee 35 to 2. There have been solely two dissenters.
Liz Wolfe: Congressman, I wish to ask about international support. This week, Zelenskyy got here to Washington and made his pitch for why the USA, in his eyes, should be funding Ukraine’s warfare towards a horrible invasion by Vladimir Putin. There’s additionally clearly a horrible international coverage state of affairs within the Center East proper now between Israel and Hamas. You may have referred to as funding Ukraine and funding Zelenskyy, “economically illiterate and morally deficient.” Make the case for why you oppose this type of funding.
Massie: Effectively, the “economic illiteracy” is in reference to a letter that the White Home despatched to the Home of Representatives final week. And in two or three of the paragraphs of the letter, they espouse the virtues of spending cash with the military-industrial advanced and sending that to Ukraine as a job creation program. That it will reinvigorate our army industrial advanced. You have to imagine within the damaged window fallacy to assume this will probably be an financial stimulus for the USA.
In the meantime, the ethical deficiency comes from among the senators who’ve stated that this warfare is a superb deal for America as a result of all now we have to do is provide the weapons and Ukraine provides the troopers and that we’re grinding down the Russian military. We’re degrading their capability to do that elsewhere or to commit warfare towards us. The issue with that’s the variety of people who find themselves dying. Zelenskyy allegedly instructed the senators that he is elevating the draft age to 40 and admitted that they’re working out of troopers both via attrition on the battlefield or from individuals who’ve defected and left the nation.
You’ll assume if this have been a warfare in regards to the existence of Ukraine and defending a democracy and such a effective authorities that individuals would join, would volunteer to combat for his or her nation. However the actuality is a whole bunch of 1000’s of them had the means and the cash obtained overseas. Some are dying, attempting to flee over mountains and thru rivers to get overseas. And much too many have died on the battlefield. We are able to preserve supplying them with weapons. We are able to preserve depleting our treasure, however they will run out of fighting-age males fairly quickly.
Wolfe: Do you are taking that as an indictment of Ukraine’s democratic system or extra of a way of leaving the nation as a result of they see it as a warfare that’s completely unwinnable? How do you have a look at that state of affairs? And extra broadly, how ought to libertarians have a look at parallels, or lack thereof, between the U.S.’s involvement in funding Ukraine and the U.S. funding Israel?
Massie: Effectively, to your first query, I believe it is each. They lived in a rustic the place they know that bribery and corruption are a part of the tradition and the present authorities is not proof against that. And so when you’re combating in your nation, that is one factor. However combating for the federal government that is answerable for your nation is one other factor. So I imagine that is a part of it. Clearly, self-preservation goes to be a part of it as nicely.
When it is over, there’s going to need to be some negotiated peace settlement. And no one, I believe, believes Crimea goes to return to Ukraine. So why spend all their lives when the strains are going to be the place they have been when it began? Simply realism is a 3rd issue.
Weissmueller: Let me decide up on Liz’s second level there, which is about Israel, since you’ve been type of on the lonely finish, definitely on the Republican facet, of a number of votes pertaining to Israel. Might you clarify your stance on Israel, the place you are coming from, and what you assume a few of these critics could be lacking about your place?
Massie: Positive. That was the primary of 19 votes. Right this moment. We’ll take our nineteenth advantage sign vote right here in Congress. However I assume I obtained off on the fallacious foot early and have been voting constantly ever since. The title of that invoice is fantastic. I’ve no disagreement with the title of that invoice, however there are 4 or 5 pages that go after that title.
The primary objection I had was that there’s an open-ended pledge of army assist for Israel. We by no means declare wars anymore. The administration simply type of goes and does it. And Congress retains funding it, however they discover the imprimatur for his or her exercise proper there in these resolutions. So the open-ended assure of assist for that warfare that is contained within the textual content of that invoice, however not the title, might have implied boots on the bottom. And that could be the one vote we get to soak up Congress on whether or not we will do this or not. So, primary, I do not assist that notion.
Quantity two, in that decision they talked about Iran. Within the very first decision, they’re already attempting to broaden the warfare and incorporate as a lot of the Center East as they’ll. There’s some those that simply cannot wait to assault Iran, and so they wish to use this because the nexus to get there. In order that was within the decision, a condemnation of Iran. I believe we needs to be attempting to constrain the battle, to not broaden it within the first decision of assist that we handed.
A part of that decision needed stronger sanctions on Iran. And I do not assist sanctions, by no means voted to sanction a sovereign nation within the 11 years that I have been in Congress. I believe it results in warfare. Sanctions truly create crimes just for U.S. residents as a result of we’re not going to place anyone in jail abroad who trades with Iran. What we’re proposing to do after we cross a sanction is to make a federal legislation that might end result within the imprisonment of a U.S. citizen who trades with Iran, and it hurts the people who find themselves within the nation. I believe it truly edges us nearer to warfare as an alternative of getting us out of warfare. Though I assist Israel and I condemned Hamas, I did that by myself. I put out a press release. I assist Israel’s proper to defend itself and I condemn these assaults. However that wasn’t sufficient.
Weissmueller: You have taken extra warmth for what you’ll describe as a “virtue signal bill.” It is primarily the Home reaffirming the state of Israel’s proper to exist and recognizing that denying Israel’s proper to exist is a type of antisemitism. The place are you coming from on these kinds of payments that are not even actually straight tied to any form of army support?
Massie: Effectively, I acknowledge Israel’s proper to exist. I’ve to preface all of these things with that as a result of folks would indicate from a vote that I do not. However after they handed that, I stated, “You’re basically saying that anti-Zionism is antisemitism.” And other people argued with me about that.
What’s fascinating is the subsequent week they handed virtually the identical decision and so they changed Israel’s proper to exist with Zionism. So perhaps I am simply giving them clues for write their payments extra straight as a result of the subsequent decision stated that anti-Zionism is antisemitism. And there are a whole bunch of 1000’s of Jewish individuals who disagree with that assertion. In truth, Jerrold Nadler, who’s probably the most senior member of Congress, who’s Jewish, went to the ground and gave a 5 minute speech, which is an extended speech within the Home of Representatives. However, he gave a five-minute speech on why that is unfaithful, to say that anti-Zionism is antisemitism.
There are lots of people who’re antisemitic who’re additionally towards the state of Israel, however you possibly can’t equate the 2. And I believe these 19 votes, after right this moment, are form of a part of the warfare effort for Israel to make it exhausting for anyone in the USA to criticize what they’re doing.
Each two or three days right here in Congress, we’re taking these votes that plenty of what’s within the decision is simply apparent and would not should be acknowledged. It is type of like Black Lives Matter. You must say “black lives matter.” They’re doing the equal with Israel. Now Israel issues. And so I agree that Israel issues, however we do not have to take all these votes. And a few of them are going into campuses and attempting to restrict free speech by withholding federal cash.
I have been referred to as antisemitic for merely not supporting the cash that goes to Israel. American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) spent $90,000 in my district working adverts implying that I used to be antisemitic after which in a tweet, stated that I used to be “antisemitic for not voting for the $14.3 billion to go to Israel.” Though I’ve not voted for international support to go wherever.
Weissmueller: Chuck Schumer has accused you of being antisemitic. He is blasted you on Twitter. Here is the tweet, he stated: “Representative Massie, you’re a sitting member of Congress, this is antisemitic, disgusting, dangerous and exactly the type of thing I was talking about in my Senate address. Take this down.” And what he’s referring to is the Drake meme, the place you are saying, “No to American patriotism, yes to Zionism, Congress these days.” What was your response to this?
Massie: Effectively, we ratioed him on that fairly soundly. I quote tweeted him and stated, “If only you cared about half as much about our border as you care about my tweets.”
It is simply merely not true. By the best way, within the replies to him, you will discover anyone who identified that of all 535 members of Congress, this cycle, he obtained more cash from pro-Israel foyer based on Opensecrets.org than every other member of Congress. So it rings hole when he says that. He is even in disagreement with Jerrold Nadler.
And I am going to admit memes are usually not probably the most exact option to convey a degree. However they are often efficient. There’s nothing in that meme that suggests these two issues are mutually unique. And that wasn’t my intent. It is okay in Congress to be patriotic for Israel, however you possibly can’t be patriotic for America. That is thought-about nationalism, which American nationalism is a grimy phrase. And I do know it is loaded. There are lots of people which have connected themselves to it. However when you take it within the generic sense, it is pleasure in your nation. Satisfaction in America is seemed down upon proper now. It is out-of-fashion. However pleasure in Israel is one thing now we have to vote on two or thrice per week now in Congress.
Weissmueller: You may have this fame in your personal district and nationally because the man who’s prepared to make the meme and take the unpopular vote. I believe that one of many prime examples of that’s again through the depths of COVID, in March 2020, everybody was pushing for this $2.2 trillion COVID reduction invoice, together with the president of the USA. And it was Consultant Thomas Massie who was saying, “If we’re going to have a $2 trillion vote here, let’s follow the Constitution and have everyone come back to D.C. and actually do it in person.”
And for that, going again to Twitter, President Trump’s response to that was “Looks like a third-rate grandstander named Representative Thomas Massie, a congressman from, unfortunately, a truly great state, Kentucky, wants to vote against the new Save Our Workers bill in Congress. He just wants publicity. He can’t stop it.” He goes on to say that “the Republicans should win the House, but they should kick out Thomas Massie.” What was that like having the Eye of Sauron on you for insisting on an in-person vote in March 2020?
Massie: I am going to have to jot down a e book sometime. However these tweets occurred about 60 seconds after a cellphone name ended between me and President Trump, the place he principally burned my ear off, screaming at me for in all probability three minutes and stated he was coming at me, he was going to take me down. That is a sobering proposition while you’ve obtained a major election eight weeks away and you’ve got been attempting to maintain the president out of your race. The particular person working towards you says you do not assist the president sufficient. And the president had a 95 p.c approval ranking among the many major voters who have been going to vote in my election. However I simply stood robust. I stated, hear, if truckers and nurses and grocery retailer staff are exhibiting up for work, then Congress ought to present up for work too. And that was, I believe, an unassailable message. As a result of, in the end, I used to be simply attempting to get folks on file.
The explanation I used to be attempting to get folks on file is as a result of I knew this was one of many worst votes in historical past and no one was going to be accountable for it. Right here we’re three years later, and each unhealthy factor that I stated would occur because of doing that has occurred. And even my colleagues right here in Congress, plenty of them admit to me that they have been fallacious about that. They will not say it too loudly lest anyone hear it.
The reporters got here as much as me as I walked out of the chamber that day and stated, “Your own president just called you a third-rate grandstander. What do you have to say?” And I stated “I was deeply insulted. I’m at least second-rate.” And so they did not ever come again to that.
Wolfe: How a lot COVID coverage regret is there amongst your colleagues in Congress?
Massie: Not sufficient. Not practically sufficient. The coverage is not simply the spending, the vaccine mandates, the shutting down of our financial system, the obligatory masking, the best way folks have been handled like cattle. There needs to be way more regret. However frankly, that is a mirrored image of the voters as nicely. In case you ballot this, most individuals have moved on. Even a yr in the past, most individuals had moved on.
I imply, have a look at Ron DeSantis. That was a part of his signature concern. However he most famously opposed plenty of this COVID nonsense after it turned apparent what we have been coping with. And he rode that wave and he was polling higher than Trump. However I believe folks have moved on and so they’ve obtained different points to consider now. Individuals have simply moved on and so have my colleagues. And I believe it is actually unlucky. And I needed that I had been capable of get that recorded vote that day. We might have much more individuals who would not be again right here in Congress perpetrating unhealthy concepts like FISA.
Wolfe: You have been elected through the period of the Tea Get together reining in authorities spending. We care about our fiscal well being. And so consequently, we won’t simply have the cash printer continuously print cash ceaselessly extra. We now have to be prudent as a result of the invoice at all times comes due. Do you assume that message has any hopes of getting any form of revival within the coming years, particularly given the runaway inflation that we have seen? Or do you assume it is only a completely misplaced trigger and we’re all screwed?
Massie: Let me assign a 95 p.c likelihood to that final proposition. I am right here with a 5 p.c likelihood that we are able to reserve it. And within the 30 p.c likelihood that if all of it goes to hell in a handbasket, I can nonetheless be right here and have some credibility to place it again collectively.
I believe what’s beginning to curb the urge for food for spending and convey some realism into the dialogue is the one factor that was ever going to curb our urge for food for spending, and that’s our collectors are beginning to balk. The charges at which the federal government can borrow cash now aren’t what we wish them to be. After we exit to do an public sale or a sale for treasuries or bonds what we’re discovering is the urge for food is not there, even at 4.5 p.c, you already know, to get a assured 4.5 p.c return in your cash from the federal government backed by the U.S. army? That is not sufficient to mortgage that cash to the federal government. They need 5 p.c. That is an indicator that when the non-public sector and the opposite nations, the sovereign funds, often have the urge for food for our debt after they’re dropping their urge for food, that is an indication that issues are going south.
I put on this debt clock that I inbuilt Congress to remind folks of it. And one facet impact of me carrying that is the speed at which the debt is rising goes up. So for the mathematics nerds, that is the second spinoff. And right this moment, the debt per second is $78,000. I do not assume folks understand. It seems like we’re going over Niagara Falls proper now. The speed of those unhealthy issues occurring is rising now.
This interview has been condensed and edited for model and readability.